Curse

azlnick · May 26, 2009, 08:14 PM // 20:14

All of us PvErs know it, other than a few select areas it might be hard but let's face it, when you can speed run an area for faction in under 30 minutes, HM is too easy. So what I'm asking is if you guys have any ideas on how to make HM harder but not broken?

The only one thing that you can't change due to obvious reasons is:

1. No changing skills or attributes (Monster or Player)

EDIT: It's also ridiculous at how a team of 8 with consumables, PvE skills, and summoning stones can take on a group of infinite while another group of infinite attack them from behind. Regardless of how overpowered everything is, and assuming you don't "handicap" yourself, there simply isn't a way to make HM harder. Close please, thanks.

Capulatio · May 26, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I agree but I am not complaining until I get my titles done

To make it harder they could add damage reduction, or a handicap in HM Areas dependeding on how far through the game it is.

Arduin · May 26, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Go back in time and not release EotN with it's PvE skills and consumables.

MagmaRed · May 26, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Remove PvE only skills. Can people actually complete anything in HM without using the following skills?

Save Yourselves!
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Cry of Pain
Pain Inverter
Air of Superiority
Summon Mursaat/Ice Imp/Naga Shaman/Ruby Djinn
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor/Wisdom
You Move Like a Dwarf!
I Am Unstoppable!
Whirlwind Attack
Necrosis
Seed of Life
There's Nothing to Fear!
Critical Agility

Now, I like some of those skills, and use some of them. I wouldn't want all of them to be nerfed/removed, but I do think many of them are bad. Most speed clear groups use a perma Shadow Form or a combination of the PvE skills above. Without those things, many spots of HM wouldn't be done.

I personally like the challenge of doing things with normal skills. I enjoy creating a build that will work without using the overpowered PvE skills all the time. Will it change? Not likely, and I don't care if it does or not. I enjoy playing, and will continue to do so until I don't. But I do think the ONLY reason people find PvE too easy (in HM) is from the overpowered skills we were given.

Ariena Najea · May 26, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Last weekend, I Vanquished Melandru's Hope H/H for the weekend bonus, as well as mapped the area on that character for Cartographer. In total... 42 minutes. I was running my own Discord team, with my own bar full of unfair and broken skills. The last time I bothered to Vanquish a Kurzick area, it was before I (or anyone else with me) had done anything in EoTN, and it took about two hours with a 4 player, 4 hero party, since we used only P+F+N skills.

This specific topic has been discussed to death, but really, in my opinion if you want a challenge, stay away from PvE skills entirely, and only bring players + henchmen (or preferably all players). You'll have a better time

Icy The Mage · May 26, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

The hardest thing I've ever done is vanquish Joko's domain before EoTN came out. Now I could waltz over there and run a variety of broken builds stemming from "Holy Trinity" hero builds, consumables, summoning stones, PvE Skills, etc...

The thing that makes Hard Mode too easy is all of the PvE skills, but, that's what they're for; making the game easier.

It's all the same for me, if you want a challenge, don't bring consets or PvE skills; and if you don't want a challenge - bring them!

Also, why does it need to be harder? Is it because people are making too much money off of it? Is it because you would enjoy a new challenge in the game? - If it's the latter, just follow my advice and don't bring as many, if at all, PvE enhancements that were available before Eye of The North, or even Nightfall came out

HawkofStorms · May 26, 2009, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Being able to farm or speed run using gimmicky mechanics/skills doesn't mean HM isn't hard. The whole reason people farm/speed run is because those gimmicks work in a specific zone. If it doesn't, then people just avoid those areas.

englitdaudelin · May 26, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Why can't we suggest changing monster skill bars?

Multi-healer groups of 8 monsters with balanced team builds--no more groups of 4 charr rangers, a mesmer, an ele with aegis, and one healer or protter. smarter AI that bashes your monks first. Counters to common skills. Realm-of-torment style area effects. more monster Paragons. Monster Imbagons. Monsters using PvE only skills. (Wind Rider Cryway groups in Asura lands, anyone?).

Otherwise, as people said above...PvE only skills did it. Gimp your skillbar: No PvE-only skills, No partywide cons. sets, Use 7 skills. No rezz skills in vanquishes. use only skills from your primary. Use a build that earned a rating of "unfavorable" on wiki. carry just one healer for the party. Carry no healers for the party. No paragons. all paragons. make a mesmer for vanquishes. use only the spawning power line for your necro/rits. zero out soul reaping for any necro hero. Take radiant insignias off of caster heroes, and survivor insignias off of melee heroes. Put weird insignias on every piece of equipment you have. use no enchantments. use no stances. Use no shouts. Use only weapon spells on a resto rit for healing.

I might just try some of these....

Sword Hammer Axe · May 26, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

HM is plenty as it is I think. If it's too easy I just give my self a handicap (like only giving my character and heroes 6 skills to work with, or taking 6 instead of 8 henchies and such)

ZeAliX · May 26, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Don't think I would have found HM any fun without having critical agility.. I liked assassin before nf got released, but CA made it even more fun..

s t e e · May 26, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

HM is plenty as it is I think. If it's too easy I just give my self a handicap (like only giving my character and heroes 6 skills to work with, or taking 6 instead of 8 henchies and such)

I agree. If you want to challenge yourself go ahead yourself. You have to remember, some people aren't pros at guild wars and do think Hard mode is hard.

gremlin · May 26, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by azlnick

All of us PvErs know it, other than a few select areas it might be hard but let's face it, when you can speed run an area for faction in under 30 minutes, HM is too easy. So what I'm asking is if you guys have any ideas on how to make HM harder but not broken?

The only one thing that you can't change due to obvious reasons is:

1. No changing skills or attributes (Monster or Player)

The only logical and indeed workable solution is to have more difficulty levels.

You appear to be at one end of the scale but I am sure there are many who find normal mode extremely hard.

So it would seem sensible to have as many "skill levels" as can reasonably be set up.

Janlijm · May 26, 2009, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Nerf SF and 600hp and everthing will be alot slower. Example running elona reach HM for Zquest today in 8min. And these builds can farm almost everything in guildwars. But if you want it slower go make normal builds and try it will be alot harder^^.

Skyy High · May 26, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Remove PvE only skills. Can people actually complete anything in HM without using the following skills?

Save Yourselves!
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Cry of Pain
Pain Inverter
Air of Superiority
Summon Mursaat/Ice Imp/Naga Shaman/Ruby Djinn
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor/Wisdom
You Move Like a Dwarf!
I Am Unstoppable!
Whirlwind Attack
Necrosis
Seed of Life
There's Nothing to Fear!
Critical Agility

Now, I like some of those skills, and use some of them. I wouldn't want all of them to be nerfed/removed, but I do think many of them are bad. Most speed clear groups use a perma Shadow Form or a combination of the PvE skills above. Without those things, many spots of HM wouldn't be done.

I personally like the challenge of doing things with normal skills. I enjoy creating a build that will work without using the overpowered PvE skills all the time. Will it change? Not likely, and I don't care if it does or not. I enjoy playing, and will continue to do so until I don't. But I do think the ONLY reason people find PvE too easy (in HM) is from the overpowered skills we were given.

Considering how I did the vast majority of HM titles with H/H, with me as a BHA ranger most of the time, and the main PvE skill that I ever used was Finish Him! just to kill stuff faster, yeah, I'm fairly certain that PvE skills really aren't the issue here. That's completely discounting all the HM-ing people did before GW:EN's release.

BTW, before we start with the dumb "so don't use all your skills" talk, intentionally handicapping yourself is not a fun way to be challenged in a game. If I want to solve a difficult sudoku puzzle, I find a puzzle that is rated as "very hard"; I don't turn off the lights so I can't see the board, break my pencil so it's hard to write, or rip the paper into little pieces and scatter them around the room first. A game that requires the player to play stupidly or simply not at the best of their abilities in order to pose a challenge is simply not fun, at least not for the group of gamers looking for a real challenge.

azlnick · May 26, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

BTW, before we start with the dumb "so don't use all your skills" talk, intentionally handicapping yourself is not a fun way to be challenged in a game. If I want to solve a difficult sudoku puzzle, I find a puzzle that is rated as "very hard"; I don't turn off the lights so I can't see the board, break my pencil so it's hard to write, or rip the paper into little pieces and scatter them around the room first. A game that requires the player to play stupidly or simply not at the best of their abilities in order to pose a challenge is simply not fun, at least not for the group of gamers looking for a real challenge.

I agree COMPLETELY. This is exactly what I am talking about. I am wondering if you guys can think of any ideas in order to make things harder without doing what is said above.

Lord Of Blame · May 26, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

If you want a harder HM just don't use cons, PVE skills, or heroes. That should make it more difficult for you.

If they wanted to make the game harder then they need to make the enemy groups more balanced. That's about all that would need to be done.

nkuvu · May 26, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

BTW, before we start with the dumb "so don't use all your skills" talk, intentionally handicapping yourself is not a fun way to be challenged in a game.

Do you use PvE-only skills and consumables for everything you do in the game?

If not, then you're already handicapping yourself. I'm not sure how it's different if you refuse to use PvE-only skills and consumables in hard mode.

Shasgaliel · May 26, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

They could add some balanced mobs here and there such as those stone summit mobs in vloxen or bosses like fendi... But then the big cry will hit Anet...
I think that several people are still unable to do most of hm stuff even with summoning stones, discord heroes etc. I was once pugging a hm mission with a guy who had discord heroes. We failed. Next time I took henchmen instead of him and his discord heroes and all worked as a wonder. It depends on people.

I really think to contrary what you wrote that the best way to make hard mode hard for you is that you limit yourself. All other changes will harm all those guys who now struggle with nm.... No elites on bars. No cons etc. Proph only skills. For example I tried to vanquish joko's domain without a single monk or do vizunah hm with warriors only. Not only it is fun but when it succeeds it gives some sense of accomplishment which is not the case with consumables and all those pve only stuff. I do not think that trying to do some area only with a specific class is handicaping. It is rather learning how much you can do with a single class.

Icy The Mage · May 27, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Considering how I did the vast majority of HM titles with H/H, with me as a BHA ranger most of the time, and the main PvE skill that I ever used was Finish Him! just to kill stuff faster, yeah, I'm fairly certain that PvE skills really aren't the issue here. That's completely discounting all the HM-ing people did before GW:EN's release.

BTW, before we start with the dumb "so don't use all your skills" talk, intentionally handicapping yourself is not a fun way to be challenged in a game. If I want to solve a difficult sudoku puzzle, I find a puzzle that is rated as "very hard"; I don't turn off the lights so I can't see the board, break my pencil so it's hard to write, or rip the paper into little pieces and scatter them around the room first. A game that requires the player to play stupidly or simply not at the best of their abilities in order to pose a challenge is simply not fun, at least not for the group of gamers looking for a real challenge.

How does that relate at all? All of the things you suggested, interfere with your ability to make good decisions and choices. How does exclusion of consumables and/or PvE-Only skills inhibit your ability to make smart choices?

kazjun · May 27, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

You can't make it 'hard' without changing skill bars. Idiot bars with big numbers is still idiot bars. Making numbers bigger will only cut down options and force players to adopt tank and spank. Or go big numbers themselves with consumables and pve skills.

And there are plenty of skills that aren't pve only that pwn HM anyway. SF for one. Make numbers so big that normal players die in one hit, a SF tank will not care. Buff monsters to lvl60, and SF's still won't care. They'll get used to tank all zones and the rest of the party will be nuking of some sort (SS, ROJ, CoP etc).

The whole concept of HM was flawed from the start with simply buffed monsters rather than better skill bars and mobs builds. All those ruby djinn mobs for example, you'd just have to add a diamond djinn with ToF and that mobs challenge level goes way up, without needing to buff their stats in anyway.

EoTN was a good start, most mobs there have ok builds that would dare say own most mobs in the previous chapters. Though they are also pretty all or nothing. The 6 man raptor gank squads for example. Their crit defences pretty much own most melee parties. On the other hand, a good bsurge ele pretty much owns them all.